[bnj]

Originally Posted by Driver72

...after Shiv was the one who gave Terry all software workings of his earlier PROcedes...

I am sorry, but I doubt that Shiv has given Terry all his software workings. Why would he do that?

Driver72 has implied already earlier that JB2 would be using "Shiv's equations". I am beyond commenting the rest of the post, but it is good for the forum members to know that Procede is much more complex tuning approach dispite of somewhat similar results. And V2 should be able to set itself apart from competition in a manner that there is no more need to compare it to other products.

I don't believe Shiv has "given Terry all software workings of his earlier Procedes". Terry has not used similar method or Shiv's "equations". The tuning approaches are very very different and very much beyond the thread title.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by E90Russ

What is the truth of his personality? I came to the forums a little late. Additionally, I'd have to assume that the Procede is put together in a similar fashion as the JuiceBox. Both tuners seems to be pretty bright guys that have the understanding of what's needed to make a nice product.

I think the major point of these tests needs to be the proximity of the times of the two tuners and their relevant price point, not just the ability of one to outperform the other. I would totally understand the comparison if they were both priced similarly. However, as it stands, one is priced at ~$350, the other ~$1500.

Search past posts of TerryBurger, Terry335i, and many other of his usernames.

No, the two products vary greatly.
Shiv has been a professional tuner of turbocharged cars for 8 years, making it into numerous national and international magazines and respected for his ability and accomplishments.
Terry is a software engineer who picked Shiv's brain about tuning the 335i (then stabbed him in the back by posting the formulas online forcing Shiv to change them, followed by Terry then attacking Shiv and his product at every opportunity he got) and then went to Radio Shack, bought a few resistors and cables and so forth and in his home (with no dyno) made a program and installed it in his personal car.
He called it the "No-Cede" at first, then "TerryTuner" and then finally "JuiceBox".
Though a very intelligent guy, Terry had no experience ECU tuning cars of any sort before he gave it a shot on his home computer and with, as he once said, '$3 in parts from Radio Shack' made a "tuner box".

People on the forums called him crazy and brave to experiment with ECU tuning on his own personal car from his home computer with cheap parts from Radio Shack.
I gave him credit for it, but agreed. And to this day, I think it's the people buying this homemade tuner box from an inexperienced "tuner" and putting them on THEIR $45-50k cars the crazy ones.
But many say any of us who put any kind of chip on our cars are crazy.
That very well could be true, but personally if I'm going to take a chance and be "crazy" it's going to be with someone of many times more experience, than one with basically none.

Anyway, Hotrod had a very informative post here.
Sorry to have contributed to yet another JB vs PROcede vs. TT or whatever.
People are free to buy the JB2 all they want.
It's just a buyer beware situation...as it is with any product.

Thanks again HotRod for the info.
See you in the near future hopefully.

[Driver72]

Originally Posted by bnj

Or really? I did not know that Shiv has given Terry all his software workings. Why did he do that?

Driver72 has implied already earlier that JB2 would be using "Shiv's equations". I think that although the rest of his post is not worth commenting, it is good for the forum members to know that in reality Procede is much more complex tuning approach dispite of somewhat similar results. And V2 should be able to set itself apart from competition in a manner that there is no more need to compare it to other products.

The bottom line is that Shiv has not "given Terry all software workings of his earlier Procedes". Neither has Terry used the similar method or Shiv's "equations". The tuning approaches are very very different and very much beyond the thread title.

Shiv gave him that info because I think Shiv thought he was just an inquisitive person who wanted to learn.
Shiv was being nice and explained it in detail.
Terry "cracked" it or something then posted all the info on this forum for everyone to see and opened to door to hackers and knock-offs.
Shiv had to change his program and install devices to keep people from ripping the info off him.

I don't know or think Terry is using Shiv's "equations" but it's probably safe to say, without the info Shiv gave Terry, Terry would not have known where to begin in programming the 335i and making his JB.
It was surely Terry's launching pad.

Anyway, I'm not to going to continue debating this here.
Those who have read Terry's past posts and seen his antics know all this already.
Take care all.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Meaning, the "addage" 10 rwhp = .1 second and about 1 mph is easy when you are only pushing the car through the air at 90-100 mph.

I don't want to be a magazine racer, but it is amazing how closely the the terminal speed increases follow that formula. 10HP=1MPH=.10 sec, 100Lbs=10HP.

Of course this in in similar street type cars in the 3000-4000lb range, within 90-125mph ranges. Look at the new Corvette for example, It gained thirty something HP, and goes 3mph faster. Look at the Z06, it has 100hp more than the stock 06 C6 and goes about 10mph faster in the 1/4.

The E46 330i made a about 100HP less than the E46 M3, and ran about 10mph less in the 1/4 mile. 96mph vs 106mph

The new E92 M3 makes about 80 more horsepower than the E46 M3 (414vs333), so it should run about 8mph faster. (so 114mph?). But alas, it weighs about 200lbs more. So subtract 2mph, and you are right at the 112mph that they are achieving with it.

The E60 M5 makes about 500 hp (84 horsepower more than the new E92 M3), so it should go about 8.4mph faster in the qtr mile. (`120mph). But it weighs about 400lbs more, so take away 4 mph and you are right at the 116mph that they are rated.

There are many abberations, some cars are under/overrated, and you have to compare similiar drivetrains etc. But for the most part, the relationship is fairly close, especially comparing horsepower increases on the same car. If tested under the same exact conditions, you wouldn't expect a Procede 335i with 45-50 more horsepower only trapping 2mph faster than a stock 335i. I am basihg this on the fact that most of best speeds posted with a Procede have been in the 108-109mph range. While stock 335i BMWs have tested at 106mph by several publications. In fact, CD just got 106mph even with an automatic, (which is supposed to dyno lower?)

http://www.caranddriver.com/shortroa...ffs-page3.html

[bnj]

Driver72, I appreciate your view. My opnion is that Procede is much much more than what Shiv has been posting in the forum and "cracking" if you can call it that, was done by someone else just by opening the file in wordpad or something...bunch of figures with no value to any of us.

[radgator1]

Originally Posted by Driver72

Shiv gave him that info because I think Shiv thought he was just an inquisitive person who wanted to learn.
Shiv was being nice and explained it in detail.
Terry "cracked" it or something then posted all the info on this forum for everyone to see and opened to door to hackers and knock-offs.
Shiv had to change his program and install devices to keep people from ripping the info off him.

I don't know or think Terry is using Shiv's "equations" but it's probably safe to say, without the info Shiv gave Terry, Terry would not have known where to begin in programming the 335i and making his JB.
It was surely Terry's launching pad.

Anyway, I'm not to going to continue debating this here.
Those who have read Terry's past posts and seen his antics know all this already.
Take care all.

You might want to go back and look at those posts again. Terry didn't crack the code, another member did, and in his defense all he did was remove one leading number or letter from the start of each line of code of the maps that were downloadable for free from the Vishnu website. The other member sent the "cracked" maps to Terry and he posted them here.

Since the JB doesn't use maps Terry didn't use shivs "formulas" at all in the JB developement. In fact Terry posted his schematics for the origional Terry Tuner that he made on a bread board here and told you exactly what resistors to buy and how to wire the circuit so if anyone wanted to they could make their own tmap clamp. He tightened it up a bit and put it in better packaging and with better pins etc, spent time and money on testing and making sure he was operating in a safe level of boost. He then paid for forum sponsorship elsewhere (they wouldn't take his money here because he had already burned his bridges so to speak) and some marketing and that's pretty much how the JB1 came about. The JB2 is a little more sophisticated but still doesn't load any maps so really have very little in common with the PROcede which is much more sophisticated and is priced accordingly.

[RiXst3r]

Actually, you are both wrong... there was no "cracking"... and nobody sent "cracked" maps to terry!!!

also, keep in mind, this was before terry got banned, and before he started selling his own box... nobody really knew what terry was capable of at this point.

terry posted a new thread about using the haltech software to open procede files, and in the first post, he said "use a hex editor to compare the files, and see what is different"

so me, being a nerd, opened the files in a hex editor, and compared them, as he said, and sure enough, delete one little charactor from the first line, and it opens up in the haltech interceptor software.

I replied back and told him that his idea worked, and then from there, it got ugly, and basically was the start of terry's major vishnu attacks. I DID NOT SEND ANY MAPS TO TERRY, he obviously did the hex edit trick himself, since it was his idea in the first place

I felt kinda bad for accidentily helping terry, because for me its just a geeky thing to know how stuff works, obviously no profit in it for me... , but then I realized terry probably already knew that the hex editor trick worked, because he was the one that suggested it, and he was just waiting for some unsuspecting computer nerd like myself to come and take the fall...

anyways, the juicebox doesnt use maps, it doesnt have a processor, its just a box of resistors and simple electronics... no maps of any kind, so he didnt actually use this for his box.

so there it is, the truth

Originally Posted by radgator1

You might want to go back and look at those posts again. Terry didn't crack the code, another member did, and in his defense all he did was remove one leading number or letter from the start of each line of code of the maps that were downloadable for free from the Vishnu website. The other member sent the "cracked" maps to Terry and he posted them here.

Since the JB doesn't use maps Terry didn't use shivs "formulas" at all in the JB developement. In fact Terry posted his schematics for the origional Terry Tuner that he made on a bread board here and told you exactly what resistors to buy and how to wire the circuit so if anyone wanted to they could make their own tmap clamp. He tightened it up a bit and put it in better packaging and with better pins etc, spent time and money on testing and making sure he was operating in a safe level of boost. He then paid for forum sponsorship elsewhere (they wouldn't take his money here because he had already burned his bridges so to speak) and some marketing and that's pretty much how the JB1 came about. The JB2 is a little more sophisticated but still doesn't load any maps so really have very little in common with the PROcede which is much more sophisticated and is priced accordingly.

[hotrod182]

Okay, I figured out why my terminal speeds varied so wildly from 105.81 to 109.20MPH this morning. Apparently the Gtech has a distance marker AND a speed marker in which the LED flashes. Mine was set at 104mph. Since it reaches 104mph well before the 1/4 mile with the JB2 now, it greatly affected my mph when I started slowing down immediately after seeing the light flash. I set the speed to 111 mph, so it won't be an issue any more. Unless I have a Procede 2.0, then I would have to raise it some more? LOL.